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Author Topic: The famous quote from ArchBish Bugnini...  (Read 4161 times)
SPB
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« on: December 09, 2011, 11:12:AM »

Is actually a total lie., made up yet so often quoted by trads. I only recently found out myself despite using it a few times here and there. Makes you think doesn't it?

What he said:

"We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is for the Protestants.”
(Archbishop Bugnini before the introduction of the Novus Ordo Missae, quoted in “Osservatore Romano”, March 19, 1965)

What he actually said:

"Love of souls and the desire to facilitate in every way, by removing anything that could even remotely be an impediment or make them feel ill at ease, the road to union on the part of separated brethren, has induced the Church to make even these painful sacrifices" (page 6, column 4).

The sacrifices that Father Bugnini felt were painful to make concerned some familiar words omitted from one particular prayer in the Good Friday liturgy. Still quite problematic but......... what else are we repeating that is a complete fabrication?
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damooster
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 12:00:PM »

I have been trying to get copies of his books for a while now, but the only ones I could find are used and priced too high.

I think its prudent to verify his quotes because there are so many people out there that are willing to stretch or alternate things to prove a point I.e. MHFM, Traditio etc.
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Old Salt
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Sancta Dei Genitrix Ora Pro Nobis.


« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 12:38:PM »

I found the major work by Bishop Bugnini on Amazon.com "Reform of the Roman Liturgy, 1948-1975"
with this review about it from a very trustworthy source, Jeffrey Tucker, who read the book:

"It is sometimes said that the confusions and experiments that followed the close of the Second Vatican Council were not intended by the architects of the Council itself. Bugnini's personal history of these years puts that myth to rest. He demonstrates an astounding hostility toward Catholic tradition in these pages, and shows that at every turn the Council was working to dismantle the liturgy, doctrine, and spirituality of the ages and replace it with a new and thoroughly modern, if not humanistic, theory of the faith. How this monstrous figure became the most influential figure at a Church Council is the only remaining mystery. In the meantime, this book is an essential read."
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Don't forget to pray for the dead.
SPB
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 12:43:PM »

I'm not defending Bishop Bugnini at all. What I am saying is that there are a handful of oft repeated "quotes" and such things that are, it seems, either entirely made up or very economical with the truth. I never want to get involved in such dishonesty, it is the liberal tactic.
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Old Salt
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2011, 12:44:PM »

For anyone who wants to read,in his own words, how Annibale Bugnini hated the Traditional Latin Mass and the Church, here is his book:

http://www.amazon.com/Reform-Liturgy-1948-1975-Annibale-Bugnini/dp/0814615716
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Adam Wayne
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 01:44:PM »

I must say this is rather interesting. I would be apt to at first glance say that the alleged quote is much the same as the authentic one. But, in light of it concerning a Good Friday prayer, SPB's point is well taken.

I dunno. I think it is in the nature of carnal creatures to want to find someone to point the finger at. I don't believe, I know, that a lot of what gets repeated is complete bull. Most of it is not about the Church, however.

Nothing new here.

Getting back to the idea on the nature of carnal man, perhaps we should be thinking of Old Scratch and his minions for some of the blame. But, that takes a kind of Faith that has moved beyond the carnal realm of what can be seen, touched, smelt, heard, and tasted.

But as long as we have a "monster" to cite, we're O.K.
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James02
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 04:49:PM »

So the actual quote does not refer to Protestants?  The "actual" quote compared to what you call a "fraud" is so different, it raises some questions in my mind.  Perhaps the cite for the "fraud" is wrong.  Perhaps whoever revealed this quote put in the wrong reference, but the quote actually exists.

IF this is a big fraud, then someone has sinned against Charity no doubt.

But just going off of what you call the "actual" quote, it is pure error.  Let us consult Pope Leo XIII
Quote
The underlying principle of these new opinions is that, in order to more easily attract those who differ from her, the Church should shape her teachings more in accord with the spirit of the age and relax some of her ancient severity and make some concessions to new opinions. Many think that these concessions should be made not only in regard to ways of living, but even in regard to doctrines which belong to the deposit of the faith. They contend that it would be opportune, in order to gain those who differ from us, to omit certain points of her teaching which are of lesser importance, and to tone down the meaning which the Church has always attached to them. It does not need many words, beloved son, to prove the falsity of these ideas if the nature and origin of the doctrine which the Church proposes are recalled to mind.
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maso
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2011, 07:01:AM »

So the actual quote does not refer to Protestants?  The "actual" quote compared to what you call a "fraud" is so different, it raises some questions in my mind.  Perhaps the cite for the "fraud" is wrong.  Perhaps whoever revealed this quote put in the wrong reference, but the quote actually exists.

IF this is a big fraud, then someone has sinned against Charity no doubt.


Those who sinned against Charity are the bishops (and the popes who stayed silent) who, by a devilish abuse of power, strictly forbade the traditional latin mass while on the contrary our Holy Father recently said it never was. If the two liturgies had coexisted until now for 40 years it is highly probable that the TLM would be much more widespread,and the teaching of latin in the seminaries still ongoing for that purpose.
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Habitual_Ritual
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 07:30:AM »

Once again let us all ignore the Fact that Bugnini was exposed as a Mason (auto-excommunicant) and packed off to be nuncio to Iran before the whole story could be investigated.
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" There exists now an enormous religious ignorance. In the times since the Council it is evident we have failed to pass on the content of the Faith.”

(Pope Benedict XVI speaking in October 2002.)
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 07:32:AM »

Once again let us all ignore the Fact that Bugnini was exposed as a Mason (auto-excommunicant) and packed off to be nuncio to Iran before the whole story could be investigated.

Oh?  When was Bugini canonically censured for involvement with Freemasonry?  You are simply spreading calumny and gossip.  There's enough reason as it is to criticise the man.  Stop focusing on the ramblings of tabloid "news" (which is the source of the claims of Freemasony).
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Still Jesus cried, 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do, '
And still it rained the winter rain that drenched Him through and through;
The crowds went home and left the streets without a soul to see,
And Jesus crouched against a wall, and cried for Calvary.
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